bluec230

Honest question, if not a bit blasphemous. Is the Lexus SC430 a much better value, if not a better convertible all together? Quieter, more refined engine, DVD navigation, 4 seats (as opposed to 2), a beautiful body, a similar hardtop, a better mark levinson sound system, same rear wheel drive, same 300 HP. Only $67,000, no option packages, everythings included. Isn't the Lexus a better value, quite frankly a better car? (lexus's are reliable!)

jco-amg

Strange...I have yet to hear anyone else comparing the Lexus to the SL?...It seems a bit odd, considering the number of reviewers that have placed the SL among the best cars EVER designed...I have never heard even suggested about the SC430. simply put without a full critique....the SL is everything the the SC430 is not...or should I say wished it could have been. You get what you pay for...I think a more appropriate comparison would be with the SLK.

Juke-box

hmm...its true that Lexus has the BEST stock sound system by Levinson! but then again..i hope Dynaudio does get chosen by someone to be put in stock cars..then that'll be interesting for Levinson heehee..

But one point i was wondering about...is the Lexus 430 engine really better than the 500?? My mom's LS400 has quite a sloppy enign IMO. It just doesn't feel as solid as the MB's. its already starting to show its age.

and i would say the SL's have better body styling IMO..and more trunk space...



ps: does anyone know who owns Mark Levinson/Cello home audio? since levinson himself moved on with Red Rose Music..

RJC

Some good points. The Lexus engine is quieter and smoother as noted by quite a few auto publications with almost the same hp\trq as the bigger engine in the benz and the lexus has DOHC's with 4 valves per cylinder vs SOHC and 3 valves in the benz and is more expensive to manufactuer and yes Lexus has beat MBZ in quality for some time now and the interior design is quite nice in the sc430. But the design of the sc430 body simply cannot compare to that of the new sl.

Norm C32

blue c230, I saw your thread topic and had difficulty not trying to see what someone might see that they had in common. The SL R230 is a technological marvel only matched by the new BMW 7. It was either C&D or MT magazine that picked the ole CLK Cab. over the SC430. So I don't think that the SL is even close in comparison even in taking into consideration the over $20K difference. Reviews compare the SL to Porsche, Jaguar, and other cars in the $100K range. Lexus is not there at this level. I have not seen anything that says they'll have plans to compete in this ultra arena nor that they can anytime soon.

If you have ignored the reviews the "rear seat" in the SC430 it is not much more useful than a small padded area beind the drivers seat. It might help lower insurance rates.

Good disscussion but typical from the less is better mindset.

Norm

SL55Kompressor

The Sl is the better convertable....

here are my reason

1. Heritage and Styling. The SL has been around for over 50 years and has a real sense of soul to it. The body is a world of art, with one fluid design theme carried out from front to back. The SC430 however is just another convertable created to promote sales for Toyota. While the styling is ok at best im my opinion the message is conveys is very weak, looking like a clash between the SLK and Audi TT.

2. Performance. I'm going to quote some numbers of the SL500 from a recent Road and track. Its 0-60 and quarter mile times were relatively similar, however in the real driving...skidpad, slalom and braking the Merc pulled through. It got an incredible 67.6mph in the slalom, pulled .9 on the skidpad, and stopped far shorter then the SC.

3. Innovation. Frankly its a wide known fact that Lexus is the copycat of the car world. They take what mercedes introduced (i.e. Distronic, Rain sensing wipers, ESP, BAS, you name it) copy it within a year, rename it and claim it as their own great technology. Yet they are still behind Mercedes. Does their SC have an active suspension system that makes the car handle like "a DTM racer"? Does it have Electrohydraulic Braking that workes in sync with the suspension and ESP system? No.

4. Message. A Mercedes is a Mercedes. A Lexus well hell even school kids know its just a souped up Toyota. Is that bad, not neccesarily. But in its heart as reliable and quiet as it may be, its still a Toyota...

Well I think thats enough. now to prevent people from blasting my remarks, Im not saying that the SC430 is crap. Its still a damn good convertable. Im just saying that its a design that is not original or innovative. Its a car which does not inspire innovative.

elau

Well said SL55Kampressor.

Lexus is definitely a copy cat, look at the way they name their cars (SC vs SL). We'll see in a couple of years how well it helds up. On the same note, will the SC body style still the same for the next 10-12 years? Probably not. SL is known for its longivity, the 107 was in production for 17 years and the 129 twelve. Let's see Lexus do that.

amg55

I don't mean to sound insulting, as Lexus makes very reliable cars which are great values for the dollar, but comparing the SC430 to the SL500 is simply laughable.
The SC430 impresses me at the gut level as a 50-65 year old woman's car. It has a very feminine design. Not sporty/aggressive, but an artistic statement more like the statement a VW Cabriolet makes.
The SC430, I guarantee you, will not be a car most men who love sports cars would consider.
As pointed out above, the car magazines don't bother comparing the SL500 with anything made by Lexus or Infiniti.

The statement a car makes usually reflects the soul of its designers. What statement do the engineers at Lexus try to make? We are reliable, safe, comfortable, conservative and family oriented....we are not aggressive, performance oriented, threatening to the German car manufacturers.

Lexus simply does not stir one's viscera.
Lexus is the car you might expect to see your minister drive.

And all that is fine. Lexus has tried for years to corner that rather loyal and dependable market.
The SL500 attempts to steal the entire show.....to be THE best sport-luxury vehicle ever made. Does it come up short on the performance end? Absolutely.
But that's why the SL55 exists. This could well be THE best car ever made.
The SL55 versus the SC430 is like Michael Jordan versus Michael J. Fox in 1-on-1 basketball.

mbtech208

The GS430 stirs my viscera quite well, thank you, as does the '92-'00 SC coupe.

northbenz

The Lexus has two major flaws. First the trunk capacity is meager. Second, their rear seats are at best vestigal and are not functional. All Lexus has to do is extend the wheelbase and they could well trump Mercedes by offering a true folding hardtop convertible with adequate room for an additional two passengers along with equaled trunk space. Mercedes, however, has an opportunity to respond in kind though if they come out with a folding hardtop on the CLK Cabriolet for 2003/4 as is presently rumored.

The intangible of course is looks and style. Mercedes SL500 wins at present, but Lexus could match that to in coming out with an enhanced version that addresses the above two points.

I agree with all who have lamented Mercedes failure to make their Command system DVD based and it is too bad that Lexus probably does have the superior sound system. Those are flaws that should at least be partially corrected in the coming months since it is rumored that Mercedes will be changing their sound system supplier from Bose to Becker to incorporate a DVD based system. Late summer is what I have heard so don't know if the change will get incorporated during the middle of the model year or be delayed on the SL's until the next model year.

karl k

Because of MB's perennial quality control problems, the SC430 is the way to go for many, because of its impeccable quality record.

My new 2001 SL500 only lasted 3 months in my possession, because it was more in the shop than I care to remember, because of many faulty electrical part replacements.

The new SL is an aesthetic & innovative triumph, let's hope that it is not a quality control disaster.

pigman

Fly-by-wire braking. That says it all.

mleskovar

Strange that noone mentioned anything about how either car drives/feels. A better stereo...so what, I can't tell the difference. Useless rear seat...that is a waste but prettier than a shelf. Smaller trunk so I can't carry what? I don't care for the Lexus styling but it doesn't make me puke. Copycat? So what, at least they recognize what's important to consumers. I question how the Lexus will hold up and be 20 years from now. Yes, I plan to keep the SL 20 years once I get it. And I bet it will drive/feel close to like new.

mbtech208

I can't say I have ever driven a 20 year old Benz that still felt close to new. Most '82 Benzes are pretty well used up, unless they were not driven very much. I have no doubt that a Lexus SC430 will hold up quite well over two decades and beyond. If I were to buy a new car that I had to drive for 20 years on a daily basis, it would be a Honda or Toyota product.

W210

How about braking distance that beats the Ferrari 360? I would suspect the SL500 is a far safer vehicle, better active and passive safety.

RJC

It would be interesting to see what the sc could be if it had better exterior styling and a $87,000.00 base price as the sl.

vbnm

Juke Box, a Dynaudio system is, in fact, available as an option on the Volvo S80. My parents have it and while i haven't yet heard a Mark Levinson unit, the Dynaudio with the Dolby Pro-Logic receiver is the finest stereo, in-car or otherwise, i've experienced.

mleskovar

mbtech....Honda or Toyota? I've had both, and Mazda., among numerous other makes. I don't abuse my cars and take very good care of them inside and out. The Japanese cars loosen up gradually and are ready for replacement at 100K miles...which I've taken them all to. The interiors do not wear well at all and they all have gone through water pumps at about 75K miles despite flushing and changing coolant at 25K. All the cars auto trans clutches became worn and harsh starting at 50K even with changing fluid at 25k miles. A 100K mile Japanese car feels like it, and the MB that I've been in feel solid. I know you haven't been driving long enough to take several cars beyond 100K miles but being a mechanic I'm sure you take good care of your cars too. Time will tell for you. I'm willing to trade off some annoying fixes/repairs for a superior ride.

elau

I once had a '93 Honda Prelude. I babied that car to no end, oil change every 2,500 miles. I did not even drive it when it rained. Guess what, at 53K miles, everything gone south. What a huge disappointment. May be I had a lemon, but the car always ran fine and never any problem whatsoever before. I was going to keep the car forever, but seeing the repair bills I just had to back away. Still miss the car though.

WyattEarp

It's just not possible acoustically for an audio system in a car to perform like a high end home /studio system, your 'otherwise' must be somewhat limited.

jco-amg

the only sound system I will be listening to in the SL 55 has AMG on it!!!

mbtech208

I may have only been legally driving for 5 years or so, but I have worked on thousands of cars, of all of makes. From personal experience, the MBs that I've driven with over 100,000 miles are not that solid. Leaks are prevalent, rattles, door check straps are noisy, A/C may or may not blow cold. I agree that the Japanese still can't make a good automatic transmission, and the leather in Japanese cars shows its age much sooner than a German car, but for all-out longevity, the only Mercedes models than can keep up with a basic Honda or Toyota are the old diesels such as the 123-body 240D and the 126-body 300SD. Sure you can make any new Benz hit a half-million miles, but it will cost you dearly.

mbtech208

What kind of problems did you have with your Prelude at 53K miles? I also see you own a '98 ML320, surely that has given you a fair amount of headaches too. Window switches, fuel level sensor, perhaps a BAS/ESP or Check Engine warning light here and there?

elau

mbtech208
I am just one of the very lucky ML owners that the vehicle has not given me any headaches. I have heard all sorts of problems and horror stories in the early model ML, but mine has none of the symptons whatsoever. They may show up as the car ages, but so far the time spend in the dealer bay is for regular maint. I do have to say those A and B services are irridiculously expensive. I do not believe in the FSS, so I still have the oil changed every 3K miles. Been doing that since I bought the vehicle. I added up my last year maint cost for the ML equals to about $800. That includes $524.67 for one B service early in the year, and the rest are for regular oil changes at $38.48 each.

On the other hand, my Predule had head gasket, electronic ignition, driver side window switch, power antenna, and exhaust replaced. Some are under warrenty but most failed right after the 50K mark. Just like Murphy said. The car always ran well, it just the small stuff that you do not expect in a car with that little mileage. With that said, I had a 89 Prelude once with 152K. Mechanically was flawless when I sold it, except the seats were all worn out.

ibanez

It is definitely one of the top 10 ugliest cars in automotive history. The only cars that really might beat it out are the Pacer and Gremlin.

The entire design (not to mention those disgusting saucer wheels) are truly an exercise in bad taste.

The only people I have ever seen driving the lexus convertible to date are older men going through a mid life crisis. I can only hope that they stop production on this car soon so we don't have to see it anymore.

Comparing the Lexus to the SL is ridiculous. Its like comparing the smell and appeal of a beautiful rose to the smell and appeal of a wet dog's ***.