Safet

Changed the 2 paper filters on my CLK430 to the K&N drop in filters. Anyone have any idea how much more hp/torque I'd get from these filters, or is it negligible?

Mach430

A little over 5hp. I wouldn't recommend the filter because they let a lot of debris pass into the engine.

GBD

MACH 430... Where are you getting your information from? I mean about the debris or dirt?

levelr123g

dont worry about what he says about the debris, this is not true and has no valid info to back it up.

Mach430

This is too funny!

ITG filters filter particles as small as 10 microns, something no cotton filter can do. K&N and other cotton filters filter particles as small as 20 microns.

I typed in "ITG+FILTER+MICRON" on yahoo and came up with 48 results; most of which completely support my statement. Forgive me for not quoting all of them, there's just too many!


http://www.fuelsaver.com.au/foam.htm

--Why Foam is Best?

Why is depth filtration the only method suitable for good performance and filtration in Australian conditions? Providing the best value for money.

http://www.roverbrm.co.uk/wwwmsre/itg%20technical.htm

----By using various thicknesses of finer or coarser foams, the designers can vary the above factors to achieve the optimum performance for different applications. It has been shown that small quantities of dust particles smaller than 10 microns have no significant effect on engine wear, so the materials used in the filter have been carefully selected to give good air flow capacity, excellent load-up tolerance, and high efficiency whilst avoiding unnecessary extraction. Where high dust flow rates are possible, ITG can tailor the filters to arrest even the slightest dust.

http://www.msionline.co.uk/air_intakes.htm

---Optimal filtration of particles as small as 10 microns

http://www.bmw-m.net/Digest/Archive_...gest1923.htm#6

I love this one, quoted from Jim Conforti and his test of a K&N
---http://www.bonnevillemotorwerks.com/.../KN/kntest.pdf

---They show the passage of more dirt into the motor, and eventually
flow WORSE than paper filters.. I think that's simple enough.

Jim


http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/html_product/itg/[/URL]
--• The best-performing and safest low-restriction performance air filter you can buy:
Testing has shown these filters to remove all particles above 10 microns in size. The particles between 10 and 20 are most harmful to your engine. Compare this to cotton gauze which cannot filter below 20 microns. The ITG has a much higher tolerance for dust penetration than other filters on the market, maintaining up to 80% of its flow capacity when dirty. Lower maintenance than other filters, it simply needs to be wiped off, never washed.

www.seansa4page.com/resource/airfilter.html

Let's look. If we had 100 grams of dust on a new BMW filter we would let thru a total of 6.6 grams of dust in. If we used the new K&N filter we get 14.8 grams of dust. Thats 224% (TWO HUNDRED TWENTY FOUR PERCENT!!) more dust ingested initially, stock vs. "free flow" and this ratio is pretty much held. Somewhere between 200-300% more dirt gets "ingested" anywhere across loading equivalence.

The more INTERESTING thing is when you look at what happens to the DP or Differential Pressure at a constant airflow as you dirty both filters equally with time.

The test used a rate of 75gr of dust per 20 min. Here's where the AREA difference comes MAJORLY into play. See, even though the BMW filter flows a bit less at the SAME loading, it also LOADS UP 5.25 times SLOWER due to it's LARGER effective area. So what happens is that the K&N initially flows better, but as the dirt continues coming in, the K&N eventually flows WORSE while still letting MORE dirt in.

Now, does any of this additional dirt cause problems? I dunno. I suppose we could have a few people do some independent oil analyses on different motors using both K&Ns and Stock filters. Get enough of them, and you'd have a good statistical basis. For me though, it's simple: More DIRT = BAD.

The additional short-term airflow might make sense on a track car. IMHO, it doesn't for the street.


www.ibmwr.org/otech/airfilter.html

---Unlike the pleated-paper and oiled-foam air filters, the oiled-gauze filters demonstrated a poor filtration ability above a certain vacuum level; the gauze is quite thin and dirt can be easily passed by the gauze under high vacuum conditions. Filtration efficiency was NOT consistent for both small particulate (< 10 microns) as well as larger particulate; the oiled gauze filters appeared to be less efficient at filtering small particulate than large, and were less efficient at small-particulate filtering than either the pleated-paper or the oiled- foam

www.unifilter.com/performance-facts.htm

---Pleated Gauze or Fabric Filtration

This is another screen type that is only 1mm thick. If the dirt is not stopped on the surface, it is not stopped at all. These filters are sold on the pretense that they maintain an oil curtain for the air to pass through, thereby catching all dirt particles. It is impossible to maintain an oil curtain. The oil soaks the threads of the gauze or cloth, but does not span the openings; otherwise, the air could not get through. The dirt particles that do hit the threads have a good chance of being caught; the others simply go through. The reason the filter does not look dirty on the inside is because the dirt went into the engine. You can easily demonstrate this fact yourself by coating the inside of your housing or carb throat with a thin layer of grease to trap some of the dirt not caught by the filter or you can place a foam filter inside the gauze element to prove the same thing.

The one advantage that this type of element has over paper is greatly reduced airflow restriction; however, poor filtration efficiency is the price you pay. When dirt builds up, filtering action improves, but now the airflow is poor like paper elements.

Open Cell Filter Foam

The development of this special foam represented a major advancement in air filtration technology. Foam air filters now combine great airflow capability, huge dust holding capacity, and very high filtration efficiency for extremely small particles.

Fully reticulated (open pore) foam is a honeycomb of tiny, interlocking cells of uniform size, which create an impossible journey for dirt particles since there are no straight-through passageways. Each passageway (16 to 25mm long) is like hundreds of very small centrifugal/oil bath filters connected one to another. In this way, foam traps and holds the particles throughout the entire volume of foam. This is why they are referred to as "full depth" filters in contrast to the paper or gauze elements, which are screens, or "surface type" filters. The cell strands stop the dirt, while the oil film holds the dirt like fly paper until removed for cleaning.

www.unifilter.com/whyfoam.htm

---The principle of how foam air filters work is simple: "Open Cell" Polyurethane Foam is wetted with specially developed filter oil. The "sticky" filter oil is suspended in the path of the dirty air on the strands of the web-like cell structure of the foam. This makes it impossible for dirt to pass through the depth of the filter without sticking to the strands. As the outer strands become loaded with dirt particles, the wetted strands down stream start trapping dirt, allowing the entire thickness to be utilized. This prevents surface loading or air restriction for 80% of the service life of the air filter element. When the filter is sufficiently dirty, it can be easily washed, re-oiled, and re-used.

www.realbig.com/miata/miata/1994-02/412.html

---Here's something I thought would be of interest, considering the
talk there has been going on about the K&N air filter. It may
not be the wonder-filter everyone says. I got Ed's permission to
post this here. I got it off of the BMW motorcycle mailing list.
---Here's the info I have on air filter performance. Tests were done using
SAE J726C Test Method 5-best --> 1-worst

Oiled foam, Paper, Oil Bath, Oiled Gauze
(AMSOIL, UNI) (K&N)

Large particle efficiency 5 5 5 4
Small particle efficiency 5 4 1 2
Airflow capacity 5 2 3 5
Dust holding capacity 4 2 5 2
Load up characteristic 4 1 5 1
Backfire characteristic 3 2 5 3
Cleanability 4 1 4 3

As you can see, K&Ns are great for airflow, which is what they were
designed for. Their original application was on racing engines, where
airflow is important and ultimate engine life was of little consern. They
are not as good at filtering as paper or oiled foam types.


Well, there you have it. I've just supplied links to several sites, that state the same as I did, as well as include independent tests of filters. Please take the time to research something before deciding that it is "not true and has no valid info to back it up."

pocholin

WOW mach430, that is a lenghtly explanation, good!

I still don't belive 20 micron particles can hurt the engine, besides K&N air filters get better filtration with time.
To filter 10 micron particles you gotta make that air filter more restrictive defeating the purpose of putting a high flow air filter.

I used K&N air filter on a 91 camaro RS for over 100k miles and never had a problem, my truck has had it for over 50k miles and no problem, on a Monte Carlo SS for almost 20k miles and no problem and great improvement on gas milage!

So it is my experience that it does work and perform good.

Mach430

They do work, and perform well (after absorbing a certain amount of debris into the filter to help filtration), but there is a huge advantage in filtration of 10 microns vs 20 microns. Over time, the K&N filters will leave much more deposits on the engine. I doubt you had time to read all of those links, however there are a few very good ones that explain this. Even K&N's website says that the most harmful particles are between 10 and 20 microns in size. They then go onto say that they filter most of these, yet they do not state how small they can filter. Other sites show that it is impossible for a cotton-based filter to filter smaller than 20 microns.

Safet

nice lengthy explanation Ben

Buellwinkle

Ben, wasn't it Vadim that said that you would lose HP using the ITG filter because it was too thick and blocked airflow. The K&N is much thinner and wouldn't have that problem. I have both so I can go either way but I'm not going to sacrafice power so my engine can last 200K miles, don't keep cars that long and judging from the mods on your car, you don't intend to either.

linh

COME ON GUYS !!!! Listen to Ben, he only sell the BEST...lol...lol...lol. K&N has been around for yearssssss and i used it in all my BMW with no problem. Now come along ITG filter that no one know anything about and claim to be better then K&N. A claimed of better products over other products is no longer considered a good sale pitch buddy!!!

Mach430

Buellwinkle,

Vadim and I both have stated that the ITG filters were designed too thick for the Mercedes, thus resulting in no HP gains in any of our testing so far. I did not dispute that Safet would gain HP with the K&N filters, in fact I wrote he would.

Linh,

It would be a perfect sales pitch, only to this date I have not tried to sell a single ITG filter for the Mercedes.

Petie

um, McDonalds has been around for yearssssss and they have always sucked, always will suck. How long a product has been around has nothing to do with how well it works. Im pretty sure people buy filters for HP gains, not to keep their engine clean.

So a recommendation from a salesman giving his opinion of one product over another is not a good sales pitch? youre right, its not a sales pitch at all, its advice, take it or leave it.... He didnt even mention that he sold ITG filters. I asked him and he isnt even selling them for MB yet....either hes offering advice or hes a really poor salesman.....

Steph

does anybody know anything about the ramair filters...they are suppose to be used in the CLK DTM cars....I am using those right now and was wondering whether people had any opinions. They seemed to improve flowrates as well as the K&N ( according to tests performed on Volkswagens and such in Europe)...they also claim to be the best dirty filter......ideas?

Petie

dont know, but i would also like to know the answer to this question...

Safet

Guys, you gotta believe Ben is giving you objective advice, what's he gonna do, make money off of you on a $40 air filter and lose on the $2,000 suspension or other mod for your car? Cmon, today's sales is about building trust and relationships with your customers, and that's what it appears he's trying to do.

Thanks for your help and info Ben,

Mach430

Thanks Safet. I apologize that your original question got filled with so many off topic replies.

stephens

Ben
Thanks for the info. Realistically what effect, if any, are the K&N's going to have on a car that is only going to be kept for 30K miles? Sorry but I haven't read all the links and was hoping you could answer this question.

Mach430

I really don't know. I would imagine that several factors would need to be taken account for such as location, driving habits, etc. That being said, I have never heard of anyone with any problems due to an airfilter at only 30,000 miles.

otoupalik

Yes, these motors are NOT built close to the limits or to as high tolorences as a BMW or MB. We have pulled oven 30K mile BMW M3 motors with K&N's and they look like bb's were let loose in the motor! The walls and pistons were trashed! Looked like a 100K motor!

The same can be found with the diesel guys - see www.ford-diesel.com.

You all can do what you want, but the evidence IS real and we have seen it with our OWN eyes!

Caveat Emptor

Thanks

Brad

otoupalik

Linh,

Did you even READ the post and look at the links? Oh, I forgot, if you used it on your BMW, it must be the best! LOL!

Why don;t you look at WRC or ANY of the european touring car series or SPEED WC and see what filters are used in the BMW's and MB's. Let me give you a hint - it AINT K&N. ITG and Pipercross are the most common. Then look at F1 - anyone use K&N??? Nope, they do use ITG though, same with F2000, Formula Renault, etc.

Oh, I forgot, you are a much better person to trust then any of these real race teams!

Thanks

Brad

Brad

otoupalik

They are very similar to ITG and are supposed to be quite good. We will be looking into them more when in Germany this winter!

Thanks

Brad

genome

ben,

what filter do you use?

Mach430

Currently I'm using the stock Mercedes filter

GBD

Is the AMG filter on the 55 different from the 430 filter? It does have AMG printed on it but is it different?

pocholin

the E55's air filters say AMG on the paper, I don't know if they share dimensions or not.