krispykrme

Well, I was taking the E500 to claridge to setup appointment to get my busted A/C fan fixed. Kind of arrived late and miss the service department. Saw Lexus of Fremont just got a new GS430 in (i drove the GS300 earlier).

So dropped by and ask for a test drive.

The car is a mercury metallic GS430, that has almost all options (including the navi/mark levinson pkg, and host of others), MSRP i believe was $59k (it's missing the pre-collision system).

Steering response-
For the 1st time, lexus did a good job in getting right amount of feedback. The steering feels almost BMW like at medium to low speed. Much better than W211's overboosted feel. However, lexus did manage to screwup the steering response at highway speed. It feels too light at highway speed. (W211 did a better job in provide a marginally heavier steering response). Overall, the handling response on the GS is better than W211, but both has issues.
Grade GS- B+, W211 B-.

Handling-
Toyota finally gave GS some atheleticism that is missing from the previous car. The bodyroll on the GS430 is much less than E500 (base- since I never driven one with AMG sports pkg.). The grip is also siginificantly better than E500 with base 17" and conti CTC. The 18" yokohama does a great job in planting the car to the road (kudo to toyota for not cheapen out on tires). On my E500, due to crappy tires and excessice bodyroll, the ESP would cut in much sooner than i would have liked. The GS430 on the other hand allows more freedom. I was able to take the on-ramp at much higher speed in the GS430 than the E500.
Grade GS430 A-, E500- C

Powertrain-
The engine is smooth and quiet. From outside comparing the two. The E500's V8 sounds like a truck compare to the GS430's V8. The transmission on the GS430 shifts very smooth and is better than my E500 (which is early 7G that does not shift that smoothly). There is however a little issue with GS430, as the throttle response when you slam on the gas pedal is a little slow. Compare to the 545i and M45 in which the throttle response is immediate. The GS430 is a step behind. But, E500's throttle delay is even worse.
Grade GS430 B+, E500 C.

Interior Design-
This is where GS really fell apart. The material is 1st rated. The fit and finish is 1st rated. But the design is horrible. It feels that lexus over design the thing. It's gave me a cold feeling. I just didn't like the layout. It's not the buttons are placed in awkwardly or has bad ergnomics. It just looks strange and distant to me. The W211's interior (although cheap in the base car) feels elegant. The shape of W211's front dash is just more pleasing to the eye. It makes the W211 interior appears luxurious (even though the material and fit and finish is poor).

Another thing that Lexus really bombed is the thin steering wheel. A true sports sedan needs a thick steering wheel. I feel like i was playing around with a weiner.

Grade GS430- B- E500- A+

Interior material-
GS interior material is top notch. The plastic feels soft and looks great. The wood looks good to. The leather feels soft and just looked better. Even though the design is poor. The material used and fit and finish is just amazing.

Grade GS430- A E500- C-

Brakes-

Both car's brake performs very well. The lexus is a little too grabby (i.e. too aggressive and not that linear in response. Kind of remind me of my E55 before SBC was reprogrammed).

Grafe GS430 B E500- A-

Noise Isolation-

Once again, this is where lexus really shines. At highway speed you can barely hear outside noise. The engine noise in the cabin is almost gone. On the other hand the W211 has lots of wind noise and lets in too much engine sound into the cabin. If the W211's V8 sound great, you don't mind the noise. But it does not. BMW's V8 sounds better. W211's interior noise is not up to par as compare to other competitor in this market now.

GS430-A. E500- D.

Electronics-

The lexus navi continous to be light year ahead of W211's navi. The function on the lexus is just way better than W211. In addition, with navi the GS now comes with backup camera. Moreover, the parking assist screen not only shows the distance to the obstacle, it will also show position of your steering wheel on the screen (cool and useful). In addition, a DVD changer is now built in that will allow driver to watch DVD in the screen while in park.

GS430-A, E500- C-

Stereo-
The mark levinson is a joke. Don't know what happened this time around. The ML did not sound as good as the one on the LS. It's not as good as even the base W211 stereo.

GS430- D, E500- B+

Exterior-

Who ever designed the GS's exterior needs to be shot on the spot. This car is ugly in picture. It is even more uglier in person. This car looked like a maxima (in fact a worse rendition of maxima).

The W211 looks elegant and classy.

Grade- GS430- F, E500- A.

Overall Grade- GS430 B+, E500- C.


additional comments-
Driving both car back to back, you really do get a better sense on ability of both cars.

The new GS430 handles better, has slightly better steering response, a much more rich interior material, and a way better navi. The new GS is a huge step ahead of W211. This is not 1998 anymore, in which lexus made the car too soft. This time around Toyota has scored more than a direct hit on the W211. (It really killed W211 in many aspect). Although the new GS is not atheletic nor as focus as the M45 and 545i. It's closer to M45/545i than E500 is.

The E500 all of the sudden feels old and tired. The engine sounded rough, the transmission is not as smooth. The sound insulation is poor. Other than the better dash design, I really can't find anything that W211 does well. The chassis is no longer an advantage to german anymore. The GS chassis really feels tight.

Mercedes has work cut out for them. In this category there are suddenly 4 competitors that offers better product (3 of them cheaper- Audi A6, infininiti M, lexus GS, one of them more expansive- BMW 5 series).

The new V8 that mecedes is set to introduce must be a world class in output, smoothness, and quietness. In addition that new V8 must be able to trump the the new lexus 4.6 V8 due in 2007. Otherwise, W211 is really hopeless going up against the competitor. Things change so fast. Just 3 model year has passed, the W211 all of the sudden just aged so much over night (or more proper saying would be, the competition just matured so much faster).

I hope mercedes responds soon. I seriously doubt that mercedes can continue to charge a hefty premium on the E-class when competition is so much better. Fully loaded GS430 is about the same a a base E500 in MSRP. The gap in pricing is no longer justified. BMW can charge a premium because the 5 series is more focused as a sports sedan (and it much more fun to drive, despite a poorly designed interior). But W211 is not as sporty as the new 5. The W211 is not even as fun to drive as the new GS nor is as luxurious (for the same price- yes, i know you can option the W211 with designo that would beat the GS, but who would pay $10k more??).

Even though the GS is better than W211. But still its not as good as the E60 nor the M45. Lexus could have done better after 8 years, and to be honest it should have done better. I am a little dissappointed with the new GS. But i felt even more of a let down after climbing back into my E500.

Conclusion-

If i have to buy another car today. I will go with M45. As M45 has combine both luxury and performance into a much better package than pretty much everything outthere. The 5 series could use upgrade in material. The GS needs more character. The A6 needs more life in the cabin (too stark). The W211 needs a gods miracle.

1SICKLEX

I don't agree 100% with the review but it is in-depth and solid. Thanks.

W210

God's miracle = Bangle still working at BMW.

Too bad they didn't fix up the highspeed stability. My biggest complaint of all Japanese cars is that they feel so lose and ponderous at highway speed. I'm talking about 60mph, not 100mph. Perhaps the M45 will do better?

rjm

Excellent Review! Thanks for a detailed look at this new car. I've been looking at it since they announced its arrival. I, too, will be leaving MB on my next purchase. I will either opt for the Lexus GS or LS....or the BMW 5-series. Your review inspires me to take another look at the GS. Thanks.

jdhoang

I didn't appreciate Mercedes Navigation system until I had to deal with Nav system in wife's GX-470. Have to hit Agree to a disclaimer screen everytime you start the car. Upcoming street names are not displayed at all. And to top it all, you can only do minimal things while car is in motion (ie., you can't enter addresses, etc.).

I would agree about the Mark Levinson system being a joke. Couldn't believe the crappy sound especially from a supposedly high end manufacturer. The Harmon Kardon system sound so much better IMHO.

Haven't seen the new GS in person, but I did get to see the new Acura RL, which I thought was an amazing bargain.

Bundy

I'll let you all in on a little secret...

Mark Levinson is part of Madrigal which is owned by.... you guessed it.

Harman International.

krispykrme

Actually I am suprised as well. The stability is good, but the steering is dangerously light. Funny thing is that the new GS steering reminds me so much of my E39 M5. Heavy at low speed, dangerously light at highway speed.

The car itself is very stable. The steering response at highway speed it just too light. I have no idea what lexus/toyota engineer is thinking.

W210

The Honda Navigation is slightly better than Toyota/Lexus letting you make changes on the go, except they still harass you with the disclaimer everytime you start the car. Extremely lame and pathetic.

I took an RL out for an extensive test drive being quite a gadget man. Major disappointment. Engine felt very weak, definitely not 300 hp. Poor ergonomics and guess what, they started copying iDrive's phone interface forcing one to dial numbers using a dial! No more friendly touchscreen keypad like in the Honda. Interior also feels rather cheap just like the Infiniti, no go for me.

krispykrme

Yes, the disclaimer screen is annoying and blocking out access in-motion is stupid (but which can be dealt with a simple mod).

However, the upcoming street name is displayed on the lexus navigation. Not only that depends on which display mode you are in, it can either display the your next street exit or all the exit that is on your route.

Not sure which year your wife's GX is. But the 4th generation lexus navi (out since 2004) is a huge step forward from the 3rd generation (which although awkward in some of the screen designs, it much better than mercedes to begin with).

krispykrme

I agree with the comment on the RL. Honda tried to keep the price low by sticking with a V6 and cheaper material. Also try to look upscale by designing an i-drive clone.

At $50k a pop for the RL, it makes the base M45 and GS430 a much more appealing buy.

steph280

And I thought my W211 steering was light.

Good review Krispy.

jdhoang

I searched Lexus forum, but nobody posted any information about mods to allow access while driving.

I meant while driving with just the map turned on and without entering any destination, only some upcoming street names are displayed (and that is only if you are at a certain scale). Wife's GX-470 is a 2004 model year. Being much better than Mercedes is very debatable IMHO.

steph280

I have the same gen4 Denso navigation as Krispy, and I also agree it is light years ahead of Mercedes' Becker nav system. When I have some time, I plan to do a comparison of the two. I think the 04 GX470 has the gen3 Denso nav, but even that unit is far more capable than current Mercedes nav.

The mod to allow access is simply to disrupt the VSS (vehicle speed sensor) wire going to the processor unit. This has been documented extensively on siennaclub dot org.

krispykrme

Go search siennaclub.org and you should be able to find a mod that would allow access while driving. Not difficult if you have some basic wiring and switch skills.

If you are not using the nav, why would the upcoming street name be important to you, since you already know your way around and obviously know the name of the upcoming street.????

The lexus navi is far better than mercedes.

1. Mercedes does not allow precisce address to be entered, and per the picture I posted couple month ago. It often terminates much sooner than actual address (if the street block is long). Which means you have to look out for the exact address.

2. Mercedes POI search function is a joke. As you can only search based on the category setup by it. The lexus not only allows search by category (much better definition of category), it also allows search by name, and by phone number.

3. Lexus allows way points to be added on the fly and resequence of the waypoints.

4. Lexus allows the entire route to be previewed on the navi screen (you can play it like a movie).

5. Depends on which display mode the lexus navi is in. The lexus navi can display the next exit you are going to take, or all the exit along the way (with POI information for that exit presented as well).

6. The lexus map allow a more accurate rendition of the exit and street pattern for the turning direction, while mercedes is not as clear (i.e. simple left, right turn, or straight).

The only thing that mercedes has advantage of Lexus is that the multi-function display allows navi direction to be presented in the instrument panel so you don't have to take your eyes off the road.

But in terms of function. Lexus wins by a mile. There are some brain screw up on the lexus system that is less user friendly (such as blocking off access while in motion). Overall lexus system is one of the best out there from factory. There is simply no comparison.

I am not sure which generation the 2004 GX comes with. But if you have menu icon with POI search, then you have the latest version. If not, you have the 3rd generation, which although much harder to use is still way more accurate and powerful than mercedes navi.

Brian_I.

Funny thing is, after all is said and done we will all still continue to drive our w211's and we will all get the w212's in 2009. No matter what the Japs come out with we all know why we drive what we drive and we won't let poor quality and high prices get in the way of that.

krispykrme

well that is your choice. All i am offering is an personal opinion.

I am very tempted to trade away the E500 after driving the M45. In fact I wouldn't be suprised that E500 departs soon. This is not what I had in mind, but after driving the M45 and new GS. I really felt that the E500 is dated and old. Even for a beater that I am using it for right now. M45 is just so much better right now.

I will cruch some number this weekend. Perhaps i may have a M45 in garage soon. (Then i need to move all the mod from E500 to the E55).

Brav

I agree with 90% of it, except I like my steering feel, much tighter than BMW or Lexus.. I dont get why you think its soft? My M3 was so overboosted it was rediculous. Could steer with my pinky.

Regarding wind noise- its not that bad. However, the sound of the MB V8 is pathetic. This does bother me.. sounds like a mess of pumps and compressors

Navi and electronics goes without saying - pathetic.

Interior blows away anything on the market it its class.

But at the end of the day, its an ugly and awkward looking car.. Otherwise id give it serious consideration, just like the A6.

7G is mediocre.. kick down is good, but its still clumbsy at times when shifting at low speed. But engine response is good, dont see that problem.

Tough to give an overall grade, sometimes I'm pissed at the car, othertimes I'm very happy.

The M45 is seriously ugly and awkward. Interior styling is ho-hum.. I dont like the styling of Infinity.

Personally I'd be even happier if the foot pedals were 5" further back. I still cant fit comfortably.. really starting to bother me. There is like 6-8" of room behind the pedals, makes me sick!!!!

james_san

Thanks for the info. Understand that E60 and M45 are better cars, and the GS needs more soul. IMO W211 the the best looker, period. Everytime you show up in a W211 is an event all by itself. I have been driving BMWs for 14 years and I wanted E60 to succeed. Well, Bangle didnt help with the design and quality. M45 is just too plain and it blends into the crowd and feels anonymous. This leaves the A6.....Which has recently been named car of the year in EU.

Tough choices....

W210

Regarding the simple left, right and straight, the MB system actually show circular exits as well.

I suppose it's all personal but I don't necessarily prefer the Lexus nav. The disclaimer screen bugs the hell out of me every time (I wonder if there's a mod for Honda?), I'm not sure to what extent the system blocks you off while in motion although it does sound annoying. They should disable this feature when there is a passenger next to the driver.

From personal experience, the biggest disappointment I have with the Lexus nav is that when you're dealing with an address not on the DVD (very often in Canada), the Lexus system does not allow you to enter the address. One has to make up a dummy address to get to the vicinity. Ok, so 450 Broadway is not on the system, should I try 430? Nope, how about 400?

Agree with you on the usefulness of the dual screen, I find that when you need precise direction (checking closely on the bar when approaching multiple exits), it’s far easier to look down on the dash than looking across. The dual screen also allows one to keep the nav directions on one screen and the phone pad or the audio screen on another. Very useful, I can concentrate on the directions while the passenger makes calls, looks up restaurants or plays around with the radio.

One question, when you find a particular POI listing in the Lexus nav, does it automatically link to the phone module allowing you to make a quick dial? MB doesn’t have this feature I think they should. Talking about phones, Lexus (in fact, all car manufacturers) should get their act together with all cell phone companies and standardize the interface. It’s annoying no one knows which phone will work with which Bluetooth module in which car. Some combinations allow the address book to be transferred, some don’t, and some require user to manually transfer each entry!

BMcD-E500

Here's my two cents on this as someone who got out of the E500 and into an LS430. The review by KrispKreme is pretty much dead on. I gave up on the sexy interior of the E500 but gained a lot in terms of quiet and comfort. And reliability - I have about 5000 mile on the LS and nothing has gone wrong. The E500 had already been in twice by that same mileage. No luxury in driving the loaner cars!!

As for the Nav, this is my first one. Yeah, you can't put in a NEW destination that isn't stored in the system while in motion. Hasn't been an issue in day to day use. Yes, it does show upcoming streets if you have it at the correct zoom level. As for W210's comment about exit ramps, it shows exactly what the ramp looks like on the screen, regardless of how big the interchange is. For those of you in the Chicago area, the section of I88 and I355 coming together is shown with the lane detail for each section. Very cool.

Also, someone commented on the Levinson system not being up to par - dead wrong. As a musician, I know what it's suposed to sound like and the Lexus stereo is way better than the HK. Maybe the one you listened to was set wrong on the EQ or fader?

I have the Ultra Luxury pkg on the LS which gets me the air suspension - set to sport it's about what the E500 was in the first sport setting. Not bad for a big cruiser. Plus the MPG on this thing is amazing. I guess that was more than two cents!! Any of the cars debated here are great choices!!

Bruce

krispykrme

Actually, the one on the LS was excellent. The one on the GS just sounded horrible. The acoustic is just way off. The bass is none-existent. Overall, this is not the ML that I heard on the LS.

I was very suprised by this.

sacguy

I can't fathom anyone under 55 or with any sense of contemporary style wanting to buy a LS430. It is a reliable, well put together car but wow is it a boring design.

Omegaonne

Nice review. The only thing I didn;t like about the GS is that it looks like the Toyota Avalon from behind.

MadManAboutTown

"Other than the better dash design, I really can't find anything that W211 does well."

Nice objective review - not!

Omegaonne

Quick question. I noted that some members would trade in their E320 or E500 for the new GS or even an LS. Would you trade in your E55 for a GS? Or are we just talking about sedans in the same class and price range? I would definately not trade in a E55 for a GS. Just wondering.