PJudd

I'm new to the forum. I have a 97 E320, and I love it. I have 18x8 inch rims with 225x40x18 tires. I'm interested in lowering my vehicle, but I don't want to compromise the ride quality. I don't want to rub, and I don't want to feel every single bump I hit. I also want my car to still be functional. If I have a friend in the passenger seat and two fat girls in the back I don't want to tear my tires up.

I've read all of the threads on lowering a Mercedes, and they've been very helpful. Right now I'm debating on going with #1 pads all the way around with some H&R springs, or #2 pads all the way around. I want a 1-1.6 inch drop. I want to eliminate the gap between my tires and the wheel well, but I don't want to look like some racer boy riding down the freeway. No offense to the racer boys out there, but I'm 28, and I'm too old for that. I am planning on buying a rear camber kit from speedybenz once I get the drop. Will this kit do the job? I don't want to have trouble with alignments, this car drives perfect right now. Also, what do y'all think about Kleeman springs vs. H&R springs. I emailed Kleeman, and they said the springs would only lower the vehicle 1 inch.

I'd appreciate any advice y'all can give me.

Summary: #1 Pads with H&R springs/Kleeman springs and the Camber kit
or
#2 Pads with either spring set-up with the camber kit???

or
#2 pads in the front and #1 pads in the back?

My menchanic told me to do #2 pads all the way around, and not to change out the springs or the shocks, but I've been reading that you have to change the springs. Is this true?



Let me know what y'all thing so I don't ruin this good car.

Thanks,
Judd

raymond g-

the ride height decision can be made both for aesthetics and/or handling reasons:
control, body roll, ride comfort, wheel/tire gap....etc You've acknowledged
that ride is important. Each person's threshold for comfort vs acceptable
tradeoff in handling varies. My butt may not feel the pebble you do.

What I think you've proposed is pretty much the average drop made by quite a
few others. I, on the other hand, felt that 1.5" was too much for my driving,
my roads, and comfort. So I am pretty much sticking with 1" drop...tops.

springs
ok, so you buy the springs as the foundation for your drop. the
advertising specs will give you an idea the drop....all things being equal. the
spring rate is a bit challenging to come by. it is this figure which would allow
you to compare spring stiffness vs OE vs Eibach vs KW vs Vogtland, etc. but
folks just don't make these figures easily found. so you rely on other forum
members subjective descriptions.

shocks
this is a good rule, and one used by one of the spring manufs: if you lower
more than 1", you should change the shocks. this is because the OE shock
is designed to work with a OE spring /length. by matching an OE length shock
with a lower/shorter shock, you've 'preloaded' the shock and robbed a portion
of its travel right off the bat. thus, under same road conditions, what may
not have fully compressed the OE shock+OE spring.....may bottom out the
same shock with the aftermarket/shorter spring.

shocks are designed to operate within a predetermined range of comfort suited
for a certain ride and handling/control. valving within the tube is set for
(x) compression damping and (y) rebound damping. well guess what? these
figured aren't reported in clinical, scientific terms either in the product brochures
so you/I are left (again) with the SOP experiences of each other here. "that
feels firm but acceptable comfort" or "produces a harshness felt over expan-
sion joints" . Bilstein HD/sports are reported as "10% firmer than OE" but how
do you compare this with Konis etc? it does make a bit of a crap shoot.

camber kit - lowering more than an inch (as a rule, though not absolute) may
cause sufficient negative camber. since your model does not have camber
adj, the camber kit may be needed.

spring pads - nice feature we enjoy with our W210 is the ability to swap out
these little hockey pucks which average $8-10 each. these spring pads
allow us to fine tune the wheel gap, ride height, etc so that it'll look just right.
(...though it can affect ride comfort as well but most people cant tell the
difference).

#1 and #2 pad difference - you are just making a stab at best right now be-
cause no one can guarantee ride height or wheel gap with this degree of
accuracy. the diff between 1 and 2 is only about 4-5 mm. so given
production tolerances with springs, how they settle, etc etc....you may just
need to err towards your preference and see if you need to swap out after
your suspension mod settles

LOL....uberwagon and I went a different route: we picked components and
installed them, then would swap out pads, shocks, springs a part at a time
until we were satisfied. one would think that it would be simplier than this,
but the nature of the beast (suspension tuning) is a bit of a dynamic process,
depending (as said earlier) on your butt comfort, your driving style, the
condition of your roads, speed, etc. that's why we bought the spring com-
pressor so that we could dinker with this incrementally.

p.s. since my drop was 1" it's unlikely that i'll need camber kit. nonetheless,
anytime you perform a suspension mod, it is always a good idea to have it
aligned to verify minimum critical specifications.

afterthought: i would ask you what size pads are in rear/front right now.
just swapping pads out (only) is relative, based on what you have right now.
but again, the most you can drop is about .5" rear and .75" front. your
mechanic's recommendation is likely to result in 1/2 of the above, respectively

part #s for the spring pads for W210:
Front
210 321 01 84 - 5mm
210 321 02 84 - 9mm
210 321 03 84 - 13 mm
210 321 04 84 - 17 mm
210 321 05 84 - 21 mm

rear
210 325 01 84 - 5 mm
210 325 02 84 - 9 mm
210 325 03 84 - 13 mm
210 325 04 84 - 17 mm

PJudd

You're my hero. Jk. I wish I was as knowlegable as you are about cars.

So basically what your saying is go with the camber kit, get springs with matching shocks, and flip a coin with the #1 or #2 pads and see what happens. Getting both the springs and the shocks will save me pain in suffering later, right? I'm the type of guy that needs to get things done right the first time. The last thing I want to do is waste time in the garage when I can be enjoying the ride.

I have to call the dealership tomorrow and see what pads I have in my car right now.

What do you think about that Kleeman suspension kit on evosport.com? I heard good things about that suspension, but like I said, it's only a 1 inch drop. If I went with #1 pads all the way around and invested, (and I say invested because it's a $1400 kit), money into buying this complete package, I would probably get about an inch drop? Kleeman told me 25mm, but you said the pads may only take me down to .50-.75 inches. If you combine the 2 do you get the 1 inch drop?

What is your opinion on the H&R cup kit with the 1.4 inch drop? It's half the price of the Kleeman kit, and I would have the shock/spring package.

This car only has 75,000 miles on and it's in mint condition. I'm trying to get the best set-up so I don't have to worry about my car going to crap.

Thanks for your help, you gave me a lot to think about.

You avatar looks like your car is somewhat lowered. Can you send me a better picture and tell me what you're running for suspension? Also, where did you get your depo lights?

Ben'z

When you need new tires, better get 235/40/18.

PJudd

I just had those tires on. Had to go with the 225's, I was rubbing on that knuckle in the front when I'd hit bumps. Why do you say that? 225's are do able. If they weren't I don't think discount tire would have put them on. Have you had problems with your car?

Ben'z

235 is the recommanded size. 225 is OK, just smaller.

PJudd

Yea I like'd how the 235's looked on my car, but these damn rims I bought have a weird offset, probably due to the deep dish. In hind sight, I should have gone with different rimes. After I do the drop, I'll eventually put some 19's on with a staggered fit. I'll probably go with a more traditional rim as well so I'm not having any issues in the front. I actually shaved the edge of the bolt that was rubbing on the tire. I didn't want to shave too much of the bolt for obvious reasons, so I just through the 225's on when I got tired of feeling that rub. Thanks for the input.

I'll be going with the H&R Cup Kit, the rear camber kit from speedybenz, and either the #1 or #2 pads all the way around. I haven't decided on the pads yet. I'll post pictures when the drop is completed. It won't be till October or November though, I'm shipping out for the desert in a few weeks.

It's probably best I wait anyway, all I need is the wife flossin my ride all over town ripping off the front bumper pulling into a drive-thru somewhere.

Air Marshall Eldritch

Wow Raymond, I should sticky your post.

jimmydagreek

Yeah, I'm proud of Raymond right now...

So PJudd, I've had the H&R/Bilstein set up on my previous E420 and I loved the ride. I would have to say a bit more aggressive than 10% as compared to stock but still nice. I also drove Mikey's previous E320 (I refuse to call him his call sign, lol) and he had the H&R Cupkit. I have to say that the cupkit was less aggressive and a smoother ride than mine at the time.

Did you find someone that still sells the cupkit? I might be interested as well so please let me know. Thanks and good luck...

Don't forget to post some before and after pics!

PJudd

I'm not trying to advertise for evosport.com, but it seems like they may have the best prices for the Cup kit. They have the 1.4 inch kit going for $700. Perforemance Auto Parts has a 2 inch H&R kit going for about $850. Before I make my final purchase I'll be surfing the web for the bottom dollar price for the kit, but evosport is the current winner right now. Haven't checked Ebay yet. Like I said, it may take a while for the before and after pics, but they'll get in here eventually.

Thanks for the input, I was curious about the B-shocks, I'll definately go with the H&R kit now.

-Judd

Ben'z

About the rear camber kit, I will recommand Josh, House of Power.

https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...ghlight=camber

http://www.hopracing.com/

PJudd

Thanks, I'll check it out.

-Judd

raymond g-

tnx, dunno if it's quite sticky material yet. actually, the blather i typed is
nothing which hasn't been posted before....plus I was still at work and
really needed a distraction late that evening. my post above may have
condensed of the topics into one post. bottom line is to remember that
your need to lower mod (and how you do it) may not be the best method (or
parts) for another, depending on one's need for control and comfort.

All those questions needs to be collated at first, then you pick
the parts. Better to ask the myriad of question, though daunting, then to
assemble the parts and find out later that the quick answers provided camo-
flaged other suspension or cost issues.

separate note - i remember studying and reading tons of posts on spring changes
months ago and came across jimmydagree's outrageous how-to of dropping
the lower control arm w/o using a spring compressor. turns out that this tip
proved crucial during my attempts to change from OE to Vogtland springs.

too bad the SEARCH engine on MBWorld sux. it leaves a lot of room for
improvement. does little to tell others to STFF in flippant fashion, if the
SEARCH engine here is poor to begin with.

fortunately, I've learned to save good/valuable threads by simply PDFing them
as I come across them and saving them knowing that I may eventually use
and refer to them for spark plug changes, spring or shock swaps, sunroof
removal, window regulator repair etc etc. just checked and my MB DIY type
info is over 5gb of TSBs etc. wish there was an easy way to share or host
this for other folks. i'm sure it would help answer many of your questions
in dealing with your W210.

big tip: try to save as many of these videos while this is still being hosted.
they are free and would otherwise cost you money from MB (for the CD).

i *love* this forum as it has proven to be a great 'study group' in how to
maintain, improve, and mod our car. so accolades to all the contributors!

jimmydagreek

Thanks ray, a lot of work goes into documenting any type of mod, especially mechanical or suspension. I just received my new spring compressor but I'm in Florida at the moment and will put it in use as soon as I get back. I will take LOTS of pics and document the entire process the best that I can. Now that I know you've saved a lot of the old DIY threads ray, I'll probably be hitting you up for this and that in the near future, hehehe...

Thanks!

PJudd

Anybody ever talked to Speedybenz? I'm hesitant to order the kit unless I talk to the actual store first. He never hit me back. I'm trying to order the kit now, so when I get back from this damn deployment it's ready to get installed with the cup kit.

Raymond, can you explain this to me? If I go with #1 pads all the way around, and go with the 1.4 inch drop on the H&R cup kit, will I rub in the front or the rear when I have a lot of people in my car? What about the #2 pads? What determines the final drop in inches? The combonation of the pads + the 1.4 inch drop kit, or basically will it be 1.4 inches with the #1 Pads, 1.2 with the #2 pads, etc....?

My friend keeps telling me to go #1 all the way, but as you've read above, I swapped out my tires to make clearence and to avoiding rubbing. Functionality is important to me. I look at my car as my tool that needs to look good doing what it's supposed to do, but if it's job is compromised due to cosmetic reasons, then those cosmetic reasons aren't worth it.

-Judd

raymond g-

PJ - hard to say with any degree of certainty. earlier in this thread, i tossed
out the question your current spring pads #. if this is unknown, then it's a
bit of a reach to conclude what the #1 or #2 pads will accomplish.

so, for example, you have #4 up front and #3 in rear, then you use the info
you supplied from the spring (advertised drop) and deduct that from your
current fender height (top of wheel arch). then, knowing your current spring
pad #, take the diff between that thickness and the #1 (and #2) spring pad
and deduct that from the overall:

orig fender height
-spring drop
-spring pad difference
========
total drop

if you're overall height was predicated on tire rub in the first place, then
it likely that you may already be running near the minimum edge of the
envelope. as such, any further lowering may negate the tire swap
clearance which you created with the tire swap. in addition, the other
unknown factor is your offset/ET and where the rub occurs. so right now,
you're caught walking the tightrope between wanting an aesthetically
pleasing drop/look......vs reality of impending tire rub. proceed cautiously.

PJudd

Thanks for your help. I'm pretty sure I have clearance now. I'm not a mechanic, so I'll try to explain this the best way I can. I was rubbing on the very top edge of the tire on this bolt that was connected to a knuckle on the suspension. Once I went with the 225, I easily cleared it. I know it was related to my off set.

I'll try to call MB on Monday to find out what pads I'm running. With everything you said, I think I may be pretty reserved when I lower it. I may just go one or two pads lower depending on what I'm running now, and the 1.4 drop kit in the front and 1.3 in the rear. A 2 inch drop may be pushing it, like you said.

You've been very informative, I'll let you know what I find out on Monday.

THanks again.

-Judd

MoNd3sTo7

Can i just changing the spring only without changing the pad?? The car still going to low down rite?

raymond g-

PJ....this one? oh, you should be able to visually check the spring pad
thickness after you remove the wheel. the one in this photo (above the
spring) seems to be a #1 pad




m - yes, absolutely. the spring change is for those who desire to get every
bit of lowering which is beyond the shorter spring. as mentioned above,
changing the spring pads may get you another .5" or so. read the chart above.

PJudd

Yea, that's the culprit. I filed it down a little, and I got tired of the rubbing when I'd hit a bump. I have plenty of room now. I'll call MB on Monday and find out about the pads. I don't have time to take the tire off right now. I doubt the previous owner messed with the pads, he was some snowbird out here in AZ.

Depending on the pads, maybe I should try changing the pads first and see how the car looks.

Raymond, what set up are you running to get the 1 inch drop? Can you send me a picture of your car? I'm starting to thing maybe I should be conservative with the drop. Maybe I should go with the H&R cup kit, and leave the pads alone, that way I just get a max 1.4 inch drop. It looks like I have about 2.25 inches of gap right now. If I lower it and still have a .50-.75 gap to play with, I should have plenty of clearance and hopefully nothing to worry about. Did you have to get those bolts to adjust your camber in the front. I plan on getting the rear kit, do you think I'll need it for the front with a 1.4 inch drop?

I'm going to bed, night shift, later.

Thanks!

-Judd

PJudd

After 30 minutes on the phone with the dealership, they calculated what pads come with my specific model. I have 21mm in the front and 13mm in the rear. That sounds like in odd combo, but it still looks like the back end sits up higher. I guess that's because of the weight of the engine.

Any one have any suggestions on what pads to go with if I go with the H&R cup kit that lowers my car 1.4in in the front and 1.3 in the back? I'm all confused now. Maybe I should leave the pads alone, and just throw the kit on. There's probably a good reason why MB has the front so much higher that the rear. Right? What is that reason? Clearance in sharp turns?

raymond g-

trivia: unaltered, most cars come with more wheel gap in front than rear.

why not simply do this?....

- eyeball your ride and deduct 1.4 from front wheel gap
- .....deduct 1.3 from rear wheel gap

are you satisfied with relative drop? if not, then gamble and order the
appropriate spring pads which will either or in/decrease the gap to your
liking.

if you prefer a bit of a rake, then order whatever spacers are needed,
either in front or rear, to provide the height adjustment necessary.

PJudd

Yea, I think that's what I'm going to do. I won't mess with the pads unless it doesn't look good after I put the kit on. Thanks.

-Judd

Esleeper

Just some more input even though I'm running 19's.

19xs9's 235/35/19 front

19x10's 265/30/19 rear

H&R race/sport cup kit. 2 inch drop front, 1.8 inch drop rear. almost positive I have #1 pads all the way around. The pads were super thin when we installed the kit so I assumed they were the #1's since I had seen the #5's before and they looked half as thick. The strange thing is I know for a fact that the suspension was never tampered with as I bought the car from the original owner and she never did anything to it but had ut serviced so it was bone stock. It's a 200 E320. I would have thought that there were #3 pads in front and #4 pads rear stock from the factory.???

Anyway, I have had my kit on the car for about 4 months and the front springs have settled a tiny bit. enough where when I'm turning into a driveway at over 5-7 mph I get a super short rub from the fronts at the very top of the inside of the fender and it's rolled up there from the factory so the H&R's will settle/fade a bit after you drive the car for a few months. I can't tell visually that it's settled but the proof is in the rub. I have had three adults in the rear ( no camber kit) and there is zero rub. Probably from all of the camber.

Here is my ride height. I am planning on verifying what spring pads I have this weekend and will update. I can't imagine you will have any issues rubbing with 18's on a 225 tire and the 1.4 drop.

raymond g-

outstanding look, Esleeper !!!